Phase 1 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe was dedicated to putting everything together for Avengers. Phase 2 was about the aftermath of that movie and setting up the team for a big blowup following the events of Avengers: Age of Ultron. Phase 3 involved the team falling apart in Captain America: Civil War and coming back together in Avengers: Infinity War.
And seeded throughout the whole schmear were the six infinity stones, all of which came together (literally) in the tenth anniversary of the MCU.
The stones had been part of the tapestry of the MCU from the very beginning, albeit retroactively, as it’s obvious that the ARC reactor that Howard Stark tinkered with and that his son Tony Stark finally built in Iron Man in 2008 was inspired by the Tesseract, which was introduced in 2011’s Captain America: The First Avenger, with the elder Stark working on it both during World War II and in its aftermath as part of S.H.I.E.L.D. (as we learned in 2010’s Iron Man 2). The Tesseract (a.k.a. the space stone) returned in 2012’s Avengers used alongside Loki’s scepter (a.k.a. the mind stone).
The term “infinity stones” wasn’t actually used in the films until 2013’s Thor: The Dark World, which also gave us a third stone, the Aether (a.k.a. the reality stone). The stones continued to be seen, as they were major parts of the plots of 2014’s Guardians of the Galaxy (the power stone), 2015’s Age of Ultron (the mind stone again), and 2016’s Doctor Strange (the time stone). They were tied to the origins of Captain America and Iron Man, they revealed Star Lord’s half-alien nature, and they were responsible for the creation of Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, and Captain Marvel.
The infinity stones are based on the infinity gems (or soul gems) from the comics, first introduced way back in Marvel Premiere #1 in 1972 by Roy Thomas & Gil Kane, which featured Adam Warlock (previously known only as “Him”). Over time, it was established that there were six infinity gems, and Thanos tried to use them to destroy the universe, though he was stopped by the combined forces of the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Warlock, the Thing, and Spider-Man in a two-part story written and drawn by Jim Starlin in 1977 that was in Avengers Annual #7 and Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2. The gems have reappeared periodically in the comics, both before and after their use in the MCU.
Thanos’s desire to acquire infinity stones in the MCU was established way back in Avengers, as he was the mastermind behind the Chitauri invasion of Earth, done to reward Loki for bringing him the space stone. Instead, he lost both the space stone and the mind stone, and he attempted to collect the power stone in Guardians, though he was betrayed by Ronan the Accuser there. In the post-credits scene in Age of Ultron, we see Thanos swearing to assemble the stones himself rather than rely on others, and that quest forms the plot of Infinity War.
This movie and its followup were announced as the conclusion to Phase 3 back in 2014, originally billed as Infinity War Parts 1 and 2. Later it was announced that the second movie would have its own title, though that wasn’t revealed as Endgame (which we’ll cover next week) until after Infinity War’s release.
Having previously written and directed Captain America’s adventures, screenwriters Christopher Markus & Stephen McFeely and directors Anthony & Joe Russo were tasked with bringing together disparate characters and plots from ten years’ worth of movies to go up against Thanos.
Back from Black Panther are Chadwick Boseman as the Black Panther, Danai Gurira as Okoye, Letitia Wright as Shuri, Winston Duke as M’Baku, and Sebastian Stan as the Winter Soldier. Back from Spider-Man: Homecoming are Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man, Chris Evans as Captain America, Tom Holland as Spider-Man, Kerry Condon as F.R.I.D.A.Y., Gwyneth Paltrow as Pepper Potts, and Jacob Batalon as Ned. Back from Thor: Ragnarok are Chris Hemsworth as Thor, Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange, Mark Ruffalo as the Hulk, Tom Hiddleston as Loki, and Idris Elba as Heimdall. Back from Doctor Strange is Benedict Wong as Wong. Back from Captain America: Civil War are Scarlett Johansson as the Black Widow, Anthony Mackie as the Falcon, Don Cheadle as War Machine, Elizabeth Olsen as the Scarlet Witch, Paul Bettany as the Vision, and William Hurt as Thaddeus Ross. Back from Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 are Chris Pratt as Star Lord, Zoë Saldana as Gamora, Karen Gillan as Nebula, Dave Bautista as Drax, Pom Klementieff as Mantis, Vin Diesel as the voice of Groot, and Bradley Cooper as the voice of Rocket. Back from Avengers: Age of Ultron are Josh Brolin as Thanos, Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, and Cobie Smulders as Maria Hill. Back from Guardians of the Galaxy is Benicio del Toro as the Collector. Back from Captain America: The First Avenger is the character of the Red Skull, now played by Ross Marquand.
Introduced in this film are the great Peter Dinklage as Eitri, the king of the dwarfs, who forged Mjolnir in both Norse myth and in the MCU, and who also made Thanos’s gauntlet and who forges Stormbreaker in this film; and Terry Notary (Cull Obsidian), Tom Vaughan-Lawlor (Ebony Maw), Carrie Coon (Proxima Midnight), and Michael James (Corvus Glaive) as the voices (and motion capture, mostly) of Thanos’s henchfolk.
While this is a single story with a beginning, a middle, and an end, it was obviously set up for a sequel, 2019’s Avengers: Endgame, which we’ll cover next week, and the vast majority of the people in this movie will be back for that one (along with lots more folks). Both Captain Marvel (which takes place in the 1990s) and Ant-Man & The Wasp (which takes place prior to Infinity War) were released in the interim between the two Avengers films, and both of them were designed to set up elements of Endgame, as we’ll see next Friday.
“There’s an Ant-Man and a Spider-Man?”
Avengers: Infinity War
Written by Christopher Markus & Stephen McFeely
Directed by Anthony Russo & Joe Russo
Produced by Kevin Feige
Original release date: April 27, 2018

We open on a distress call from the refugee ship fleeing Asgard, as seen at the end of Thor: Ragnarok. Thanos has attacked the ship with his minions, killing half the Asgardians on board. He wants the Tesseract, which Thor insists they don’t have, as it was destroyed with Asgard—but Loki reveals that he has it, to everyone’s shock.
Then the Hulk attacks. Why he waited until now to do so is left as an exercise for the viewer (though it does give Loki the chance to throw Tony Stark’s line from Avengers to Loki at Thanos: “we have a Hulk”). However, Thanos kicks the big guy’s ass, and he’s pummeled. Heimdall is able to gather up enough dark magic to summon the Bifrost and send the Hulk to Earth (where the time stone and the mind stone both are at present, and so it’s a place Thanos will be hitting at some point). Thanos kills Heimdall for this, and also kills Loki when the trickster—under the guise of working again for Thanos as he did in the past—tries to kill him. Then he blows up the ship.
The Hulk makes it all the way to Earth, specifically to Doctor Stephen Strange’s sanctum sanctorum in Greenwich Village, where his crash-landing through the roof and staircase startles Strange and Wong. As he changes back to Bruce Banner, he says, “Thanos is coming,” to which Strange asks, “Who?”
Stark and Pepper Potts, who are now officially engaged to be married since Spider-Man: Homecoming, are running in Central Park and talking about life, the universe, and everything, including a dream Stark had about her being pregnant with a kid, whom they would name Morgan after Potts’s uncle. (This will be important in the next movie.) Potts also gives him shit about the chestplate he’s wearing, which is storing the Iron Man armor via nanotechnology. Strange then shows up out of nowhere, congratulating them on their engagement, and saying that Stark is needed, and the universe is at stake. Stark is skeptical until Banner walks through the portal.
Back at Strange’s sanctum, Stark is caught up on things, with Wong explaining about the infinity stones, which were formed at the creation of the universe. Strange wears the time stone on his person and the mystics of Earth have sworn to protect it, as we saw in Doctor Strange.

Banner says that Thanos is the one who sent Loki and the Chitauri to New York, and also that they really need to find the Vision, since the mind stone is in his forehead. But Stark has to explain the plot of Civil War to Banner, saying that the Avengers have broken up (“like a band?” Banner asks, confused) and that Steve Rogers and Stark had a hard falling out. Banner’s reply is that Thanos is coming no matter what, and fallings out are irrelevant. They need to act, now.
Stark whips out the cell phone that Rogers FedExed him (yes, he keeps it in his pocket even when he’s out running with his fiancée), but before he can call, a large spaceship descends upon Bleecker Street.
While on a class trip to the Museum of Modern Art, on the school bus taking them across the Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge, Peter Parker sees the spaceship and asks Ned to create a distraction—easily done, as Ned and everyone else gapes at the giant spaceship over southern Manhattan. (The bus driver—who looks just like Stan Lee—cynically grumbles, “What’s the matter with you kids? You’ve never seen a spaceship before?”) Parker uses the distraction to change into Spider-Man.
Two of Thanos’s minions, Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian, demand the time stone. Stark puts on the Iron Man armor and Wong and Strange prepare their magic—but Banner can’t change into the Hulk. The Hulk, apparently smarting from his defeat at Thanos’s hands, refuses to come out.
Strange is able to magically get all the innocents out of the way, and then the battle is joined, going all the way to Washington Square Park, where Spider-Man shows up to help. Wong sends Obsidian to the Antarctic (prompting Stark to say that Wong’s invited to his wedding), but Maw is able to kidnap Strange to his ship. He can’t actually get at the time stone, as it’s protected by a spell. If Strange is killed, the spell will never be broken. Maw, however, is content with taking Strange with him.
Iron Man and Spider-Man go after the ship. Iron Man insists that Spidey go home, especially since the ship is entering the upper atmosphere, and Parker is having trouble breathing. To that end, Stark summons another Spider-Man suit prototype from Avengers HQ upstate which attaches itself to Spidey so he doesn’t die in the stratosphere.
Both Iron Man and Spider-Man separately sneak on board the ship, Potts calling Stark even as he does. Potts is not happy about Stark going into space…
On Earth, Wong returns to the sanctum to protect it. Banner finds Stark’s phone on the ground and flips it open.

In space, the Guardians of the Galaxy (while listening to “Rubberband Man“) answer the Asgardians’ distress call, but they find only a blown-up ship, a ton of corpses—and Thor! He survived the destruction of the ship and is revived by Mantis. Gamora is devastated to learn that Thanos is now seeking out the infinity stones, and the rest of the Guardians are equally devastated to learn that Thanos got the power stone from Xandar (where it had been left for safekeeping at the end of Guardians of the Galaxy), all but destroying that world, and he now has the space stone as well. Thor and Gamora also bond over their difficult family lives, and Peter Quill acts very threatened by Thor’s manliness, going so far as to talk in a deeper, louder voice to sound more like Thor.
The stones that are left include two on Earth, which Thor figures the Avengers will be able to protect; the soul stone, the location of which has been lost to antiquity; and the reality stone on Knowhere, which Thor knows is there because Sif and Volstagg left it with the Collector at the end of Thor: The Dark World. The Guardians figure they should go to Knowhere, but Thor wishes instead to go to Nidavellir in order to have the dwarves there forge him a new hammer (Mjolnir having been destroyed by Hela in Ragnarok). Thor takes it upon himself to go off in Rocket’s ship, with Rocket and Groot volunteering to join him (mostly because Rocket figures it’s safer to do that than face Thanos), while the rest of the Guardians will stay in Quill’s ship and go to Knowhere.
In Scotland, we look in on Wanda Maximoff and the Vision, who have been surreptitiously pursuing a relationship. Maximoff has been on the run with Rogers, Natasha Romanoff, and Sam Wilson for the last two years, while the Vision has remained (along with Iron Man and War Machine) as the only legally active Avengers. However, the couple have enjoyed their time together, and they’re talking about making it a more formal and substantial relationship.
They’re distracted first by seeing a news report about the spaceship over New York (“TONY STARK MISSING!” reads the chyron), and then by two more of Thanos’s minions, Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive, along with various “space dogs,” attacking them, going after the mind stone. Before long, Rogers, Romanoff, and Wilson come to their aid—Rogers having gotten Banner’s phone call. They drive off Glaive (whom Romanoff has badly wounded) and Midnight, then fly back to Avengers HQ for the first time in two years.
We get Gamora’s full backstory: as a small child, Thanos showed up on her poverty stricken homeworld and wiped out half the population, including Gamora’s mother. He then took her in, giving her a gift of a perfectly balanced two-bladed knife. In the present, as they fly to Knowhere, Gamora reveals that she has a secret, which she can’t tell anyone, not even Quill. If she’s in danger of revealing that secret, Quill has to kill her. Quill very very very reluctantly agrees.
They arrive at Knowhere to find it deserted, save for Thanos, who is torturing the Collector for information on the reality stone, which the Collector insists is not there, that he sold it, not realizing what it was. Thanos knows he’s lying. Gamora attacks her surrogate father, stabbing him to death—which turns out to be an illusion. Thanos already has the reality stone, and used it to create that illusion. Knowhere is, in fact, burning, and Thanos wanted to see if Gamora would really kill him—and if she did, if she’d feel regret and remorse (which she does—Thanos doesn’t reveal the deception until she’s been crying for a minute).
Thanos uses the reality stone to incapacitate Drax and Mantis and then Quill points his gun at the Titan. Gamora begs him to keep his promise to kill her, and Thanos, thinking Quill doesn’t have the balls to do it, taunts him. But when Quill finally does shoot, the weapon only fires bubbles, thanks to the reality stone.
Thanos departs with Gamora, leaving a devastated Quill behind.

On Earth, Rhodes is talking with Secretary Thaddeus Ross via holoconference when Rogers, Romanoff, Wilson, Maximoff, and Vision show up. Ross orders Rhodes to arrest them, an order Rhodes refuses right before he hangs up on the secretary. (“That’s a court martial,” Rhodes says philosophically.) Banner is there also, and his reunion with Romanoff is a bit awkward.
Vision believes that the mind stone should be destroyed, and Maximoff has the power to do it. Maximoff refuses, as it will kill Vision, but Banner’s not so sure. Vision isn’t just the mind stone, he’s a mix of Stark, Banner, Ultron, and his own personality developed over two years—Banner thinks he can extract the stone without killing Vision. But they need really advanced equipment. Rogers says he knows a place.
In Wakanda, King T’Challa and Okoye go to “the white wolf,” Bucky Barnes, and provide him with a new prosthetic arm.
Maw tortures Strange to get the time stone off him, but Strange doesn’t give in. Elsewhere, Stark is livid that Parker stowed away on the ship. They are able to save Strange by distracting Maw long enough to blow a hole in the hull, which blows Maw into space. Spider-Man saves Strange and Iron Man welds the hole shut. The problem is, they don’t know how to fly the ship, and Stark isn’t sure they should. They need to take the fight to Thanos. Strange very reluctantly agrees, but he also makes it clear that if it’s a choice between saving Stark and/or Parker and protecting the stone, Strange will protect the stone and let them die.
Thanos makes it clear to Gamora that he knows her secret: that contrary to her report of failure to him in the past, she did find the soul stone. Gamora insists she didn’t—but then Thanos takes her to where he’s been torturing Nebula. Thanos’s other daughter snuck onto Thanos’s ship to try to kill him at some point between Guardians Volume 2 and this film, and apparently almost succeeded. Her implants record everything she does, and Thanos found a recording of a conversation Nebula and Gamora had where sister revealed to sister that she found the soul stone. Rather than let Nebula be tortured any longer, Gamora reveals that it’s on Vormir. They go there only to find that the soul stone is guarded by the Red Skull, who was sent there by the Tesseract during the climax of Captain America: The First Avenger. He explains that in order to acquire the soul stone you must sacrifice something you love. Gamora thinks that’s Thanos’s downfall, because he doesn’t love anything, but it turns out he does love Gamora, and throwing her over the ledge to her death is enough of a sacrifice.
Back on Thanos’s ship, Nebula frees herself—which is a lot easier with Thanos off ship—and contacts Mantis saying to meet her on Titan.
Rocket, Thor, and Groot head to Nidavellir. Rocket gives Thor a prosthetic eye he had in his pocket so Thor has two eyes again. Rocket is worried that Thor’s morale is bad, but Thor says he’s lived for fifteen hundred years and killed many people, all of whom wanted to kill him. But he survived, so the fates obviously want him to stay alive. When Rocket asks what if he’s wrong, Thor says he doesn’t really have anything left to lose at this point.

They arrive at Nidavellir only to find it all but destroyed, the rings around the neutron star that power the forge frozen closed, and only one survivor: Eitri. Thanos came to Nidavellir and forced Eitri to create a gauntlet to hold the stones. Asgard was supposed to protect them. Thor says that Asgard’s been destroyed. (The timeline doesn’t work here, as Asgard’s destruction was too recent, but the years prior to Hela’s takeover were when Loki was pretending to be Odin and abdicating most of his responsibilities, so there’s that.)
After Eitri forged the gauntlet, Thanos killed all the dwarves save him, but did cut Eitri’s hands off. Thor begs for a new weapon, and Eitri says he can provide him with an axe called Stormbreaker that can channel Thor’s thunder and also access the Bifrost—but the forge needs to be reopened, which Thor winds up doing with his brute strength. He also has to hold the rings open manually, as the mechanism is broken, while the power of the star shoots through him. He survives that, barely, though he lets go before the axe is entirely finished—the blade is done, but not the handle. So Groot grows a bit of branch and cuts it off, giving Stormbreaker a handle as well.
Maw’s ship crash lands on Titan, where the Guardians already are. They have the standard good-guys-fight-until-they-realize-they’re-on-the-same-side scene (“you know Thor???”). Both Stark and Quill try to come up with plans to stop Thanos. Meanwhile, Strange uses the time stone to look at possible futures. He views 14,000,605 of them. There’s only one in which they win. Ouch.
Thanos arrives on Titan and at first just Strange meets him. (“Yeah, you look like a Thanos.”) Thanos explains that Titan was once a paradise, but they were overpopulated, and that was where Thanos got the idea that if you wipe out half the population, what’s left will be a better place for the survivors. (He claims this was true on Gamora’s homeworld.)
Then the Guardians and ad hoc Avengers all attack. They use hit-and-run tactics, never giving Thanos a chance to catch his breath, and eventually—with Mantis freezing his mind—they come very close to getting the gauntlet off his hand. But then Thanos reveals that Gamora is dead, and Quill loses it, pounding Thanos in the face, which breaks Mantis’s concentration, and all hell breaks loose.
When Thanos is about to kill Stark, Strange offers to give him the time stone if he’ll let Stark live. Thanos agrees, takes the stone, and buggers off. Stark doesn’t understand, given what Strange said on the ship, but Strange insists it was the only way. (This will be important in the next movie.)
T’Challa, Okoye, and Barnes greet Rogers, Romanoff, Banner, Wilson, Rhodes, Vision, and Maximoff as they arrive in Wakanda. They take Vision to Shuri, who examines him and says she can extract the stone, but it will take time. She also wants to know why they didn’t program the synapses to work collectively instead of attaching each neuron nonsequentially as they did, and Banner abashedly says that he and Stark didn’t think of that. (“I’m sure you did your best,” Shuri says patronizingly.) With that one exchange, Shuri proves that she’s literally smarter than Stark and Banner put together…

Thanos’s forces try to land on Wakanda, but they crash into the force field that protects it. (“I love this place,” Barnes says with a smile.) The rest of them land outside the field. Leaving Maximoff to protect Vision (and be ready to blow up the mind stone as soon as Shuri gets it out), the rest of them go out to face Thanos’s forces: Rogers, Maximoff, Wilson, Rhodes, Barnes, T’Challa, plus the Dora Milaje, M’Baku and the rest of the Jabari Tribe, and Banner in Stark’s old Hulkbuster armor (last seen trashing Johannesburg in Age of Ultron).
T’Challa, Rogers, and Romanoff go to Midnight. T’Challa says she’s in Wakanda now and to leave, or all they’ll have is dust and blood. Midnight refuses, saying they have blood to spare.
To prove the point, the space dogs attack the force field in droves, many of them dying in the attempt, but still trying to pour through. They also try to go around the other side. Realizing that they need to control their passage, T’Challa orders a segment of the field to be opened. After a call-and-response chant of “Yibambe!” (“Hold fast!”) and a cry of “Wakanda forever!” the battle is joined.
Everyone generally does well, though Banner struggles a bit to operate the armor. Eventually, however, Thanos’s forces start to overwhelm our heroes.
And then Thor shows up, with Groot and Rocket. Stormbreaker wipes out a huge chunk of the space dogs, and Thor bellows, “Bring me Thanos!” Meanwhile Banner just laughs. (“You guys are screwed now!”)
However, Thanos’s forces mange to tunnel under the force field with their giant wheels of death. Seeing that, Maximoff abandons the Vision to join the fight. Given her (very high) power level, Okoye wants to know why she wasn’t part of the fight all along.
That question is answered by Thanos’s forces attacking Shuri, who is now only defended by Wakandan soldiers, who are strong, but not as powerful as Maximoff. Shuri is unable to finish her work, and Vision is forced to defend himself.
Midnight attacks Maximoff when she tries to help Vision, and Midnight says that Vision will die alone, just like Maximoff will. And then Romanoff says, “She’s not alone,” and she and Okoye attack, giving Maximoff time to catch her breath and send Midnight into the path of one of the wheels.
And then Thanos shows up.

While the Avengers try to hold Thanos off, Maximoff very reluctantly destroys the stone in Vision’s head.
But Thanos has the time stone now, and so he is able to reverse time and take the stone before Maximoff blows it up. He now has all six stones in his gauntlet.
Thor attacks, embedding Stormbreaker in Thanos’s chest. Bleeding profusely, Thanos says, “You should’ve gone for the head,” and he snaps his fingers.
Thanos himself disappears, and then people start disintegrating: Barnes, Wilson, T’Challa, Maximoff, Groot, and many Wakandans (though not Okoye or M’Baku). On Titan, Drax, Mantis, Quill, Parker (apologizing to Stark as he falls to dust), and Strange (who tells Stark, “We’re in the endgame now,” and hey, what a dandy title!) all disintegrate as well.
Thanos initially is in the soul stone, speaking to an avatar of Gamora as a child, and then after he leaves Wakanda, he goes to a planet where he can watch the sun rise over what he thinks is a better universe.
Elsewhere, Nick Fury and Maria Hill are driving down a street, and almost crash into a van, the driver of which was dusted. Overhead, a helicopter crashes into a building for similar reasons. Hill disintegrates, and before he also disintegrates, Fury manages to dig out the pager Carol Danvers gave him in 1995 and activate it.
“Dude, you’re embarrassing me in front of the wizards…”

One of the challenges of writing in a shared universe—something I’ve been doing for twenty-five years now in around forty or so different shared universes—is coordinating everything. It’s not always required in every shared universe, mind you. Sometimes the stories all stand on their own and don’t matter much to each other, which makes the job a bit easier, for the most part.
But some of the most fulfilling writing experiences I’ve had—and also editing experiences, since I’ve worked as an editor for a bunch of shared-universe projects as well—have been ones where I collaborated on a larger storyline with other folks. One such was the Star Trek: A Time to… miniseries, a nine-book series from 2004 that chronicled the period between Star Trek Insurrection and Star Trek Nemesis, and also helped set up the post-Nemesis status quo that the novels have continued to chronicle over the past fifteen years. Not only was it tremendous fun to work with the other authors in the series and bounce ideas off each other and expand on things other folks did, but it was obviously tremendous fun for the readers as well, because the books sold extremely well and have stayed in print for the entire fifteen years since publication.
I particularly mention A Time to… because my job writing the ninth book, A Time for War, a Time for Peace, is very similar to the job that Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely, and the Russo Brothers had in doing Infinity War and Endgame. And while there are quibbles to be had with both movies, they’re both incredibly successful in bringing together this tapestry that multiple filmmakers have woven over the previous decade.
Both Avengers and Civil War did excellent work in balancing several storytelling needs, and Infinity War kicks that up a level. It’s the next Avengers movie, the next Captain America movie (or maybe Nomad, given that he’s given up the shield and the flag costume and has grown a beard…), the next Iron Man movie, the next Spider-Man movie, the next Thor movie, the next Doctor Strange movie, the next Hulk movie, the next Black Panther movie, and the next Guardians of the Galaxy movie.
What I particularly love is the way the movie’s tone adjusts. The battle in Greenwich Village with Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Wong, Banner, and Spider-Man against Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian feels like an Avengers story—just like Age of Ultron and Civil War, the early part of the film has a straight-up superhero battle, and it’s awesome.
Then “Rubberband Man” starts to play, and we’re watching a Guardians movie. The Russos channel James Gunn (who is an executive producer of this film) beautifully in all the sequences with the Guardians, including the Knowhere sequence, Gamora’s scenes with Thanos, and the stuff on Titan.
The opening bit is very much continuing Thor’s story (more on that in a bit), and the Nidavellir sequences are magnificent, doing, frankly, a much better job of maintaining a balance between comedy and tragedy than Taika Waititi managed in the schizophrenic Ragnarok. The Russos also once again re-create a sequence from the comics beautifully, making it their own, in this case the forging of Stormbreaker. Originally a second hammer given to Beta Ray Bill, who had been deemed worthy by Odin’s enchantment to wield Mjolnir, here it becomes Thor’s new hammer to replace Mjolnir, and the glory of Walt Simonson’s sequence from Thor #339 in 1984 is spectacularly re-created here.
In both the Greenwich Village sequence and especially on Titan, the Russos give us the Inception-on-drugs visuals for Doctor Strange that Scott Derrickson gave him in Strange’s movie, plus we really get Doctor Strange, master of the mystic arts, in this movie. I actually loved Benedict Cumberbatch’s performance more in this movie than his own because he was really playing Strange, not Stephen Strange working his way to becoming Doctor Strange. (I wish Wong had more to do, as him going back to guard the sanctum felt—lame? But there were already plenty of characters to juggle as it was.) Also the term “sling ring” is never spoken, thank goodness, but we do see the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak!
Every time Spider-Man and Iron Man are together, it feels like we’re back in Homecoming again, and it’s delightful. Tom Holland and Robert Downey Jr. really do make a superlative team.

And then there are the bits in Wakanda, which continue beautifully from Black Panther—which had only just wrapped when this movie was filmed, so it involved a certain amount of retrofitting. But man, it works, from the Jabari war chant to Shuri completely owning Stark and Banner in science with one sentence to Okoye’s “why is everyone around me so stupid?” expression that Danai Gurira does so well to every single bit with T’Challa’s regal performance. I love that the defense on Earth is left to Wakanda, and I get fucking chills every single damn time I watch the “Yibambe!” sequence. Wakanda forever, goddammit.
The pacing here is stellar. There are multiple threads here, and while they do come together into, basically, two parts—Wakanda and Titan—they’re all juggled expertly, never staying away from any bit long enough to forget about it, keeping us invested in every character no matter how minor. Even the stuff that gets short shrift—the Banner-Romanoff relationship, e.g.—at least is acknowledged. We even get progress, from Rogers’s new non-Captain America look to Stark’s fancy new nano-armor to Spidey’s new suit with the spider arms (based on the “iron spider” suit from the comics), the Guardians can now all understand Groot (as can Thor, apparently, as Grootese is taught in Asgard), and we get actual progress in the Quill-Gamora relationship (they finally kiss on screen, and declare their love for each other). And characters who play a small role in terms of screen time still have important parts—Heimdall pretty much saves everyone’s asses by sending the Hulk to Earth, Wong is a major part of the Greenwich Village fight, Eitri creates Stormbreaker, which is critical to the climax (and also points for casting Peter Dinklage as Eitri and then making him bigger than everyone else in the movie), and Nebula manages to serve both Thanos (unwillingly) and help the Guardians, getting everyone to Titan.
This movie has two of the finest superhero battles ever committed to film. The Greenwich Village fight at the top of the movie is really good (though it hurt my heart to see Washington Square Park trashed), and the fight against Thanos on Titan was brilliant. Everyone uses their powers sensibly and cleverly, and nobody gets close enough to Thanos to given him a chance to engage. They wear him down enough that they almost win, and the only reason they don’t is because Peter Quill is an emotionally stunted thundering dumbass. (Which, y’know, we already knew…)
It also has the Wakanda bits, and here I must shake my head and grumble. This battle involves a large number of trained soldiers. The Black Panther is a king who has led battles before, and under him are Okoye and M’Baku who are kickass fighters and are trained in leading troops into battle. Later Thor shows up, and he’s led troops into battle for literally a millennium and a half. On top of that, you’ve got a veteran S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who’s better at combat than most humans, and then you’ve got four more trained soldiers in Captain America, Bucky, War Machine, and the Falcon.

I mention all this only by way of saying, the military strategy should’ve been much much stronger. If you’re going to lower the shield, don’t do it before you’ve even started running toward it, wait till you get there. Better yet, don’t lower the shield, just weaken it so the bad guys think they’ve weakened it, and then they send more cannon fodder CGI monsters through to die. And in the end, when Thanos shows up, why is it that the various trained soldiers fight him like kung fu extras in a Bruce Lee movie, taking him one at a time instead of, say, doing the hit-and-run thing like they did on Titan? I mean, c’mon, when fucking Star-Lord has better fight strategy than Captain Rogers, Colonel Rhodes, Sergeant Barnes, and Sergeant Wilson, something’s gone horribly wrong.
Furthermore, where is Wakanda’s air force? Where are the battle rhinos? The big-ass force field, perhaps, precludes the notion of using the flying ships, but the lack of W’Kabi and his battle rhinos stands out like a sore thumb. That’s your cavalry flank, man! They wouldn’t have had to worry about the space dogs going around the force field if they had battle rhinos to cover their flank. Plus, y’know, battle rhinos! They’re awesome!
Also, why didn’t anyone on Titan or in Wakanda think of cutting Thanos’s arm off? You’ve got Barnes right there with a prosthetic arm to give you the idea! (Also, I’m living for the day that Rocket finally fulfills his wish and gets his hand on Barnes’s prosthetic arm.) At least Thor failing to cut Thanos’s head off will be a plot point in Endgame…
Speaking of Thor, the moment where he, Rocket, and Groot show up in Wakanda may be the single greatest punch-the-air moment in MCU history. Certainly, when I first saw the movie in a packed Bronx theatre (at a 10:45pm showing on a Monday night, mind you, a time when theatres are normally completely empty), everyone cheered, loudly. The only thing missing was the Mighty Mouse theme. Though close seconds are Rogers stepping out of the shadows in the train station and catching Midnight’s spear and “Wakanda forever!”
Also speaking of Thor, I really hate what they’ve been doing with Asgard. It’s bad enough that they blew up Asgard, redshirted the Warriors Three, are apparently pretending Sif doesn’t exist, and generally trashed Norse mythology for no compellingly good reason, but at the very least, Ragnarok ended on a hopeful note with Thor, Loki, the Hulk, Heimdall, Valkyrie, et al looking for a new home.
And then we open this movie and trash that hopeful ending entirely, killing off Heimdall and Loki (though I still don’t entirely believe that Loki’s dead; I’m fairly certain that was an illusion and the real Loki is hiding somewhere) and wiping out half of the surviving Asgardians. It’s like watching Alien 3 all over again (and that’s not a good thing). Bleah.
One holdover from Ragnarok that does work, though, is the characterization of Banner and the Hulk. While it makes no sense that the Hulk would wait until Loki can get off a one-liner on Thanos before the big guy shows up to fight, the fight itself does a nice job of showing us how dangerous Thanos is. But then the Hulk—who has just spent two years on Sakaar winning almost every fight in the arena (and the one he lost was to Thor, so he probably doesn’t count that)—loses, badly, and he refuses to come out again. As we saw in Ragnarok, this Hulk is a bit more eloquent, but still pretty much a five-year-old, and he’s acting exactly like a five-year-old having a temper tantrum. It’s an interesting next step in the character’s evolution, which has been fun to watch since Avengers (I love the way Mark Ruffalo delivers the resigned, “When do I ever get what I want?” when Stark asks him to Hulk out in Greenwich Village). In addition, the running gag of Banner being gobsmacked by how much has changed since Age of Ultron is delightful.

Of all the things this film accomplishes, the thing that impresses me the most is that it makes me interested in Thanos as a character. I have never liked Thanos, partly because I don’t have the bone in my head that makes me like Jim Starlin’s writing or artwork (it’s just never done anything for me). After watching this movie, I went and reread the two 1977 stories I mentioned above that had one of the big battles against Thanos, and they left me completely flat. Thanos always felt like a second-rate Darkseid to me.
Josh Brolin’s performance and the way he’s written in this movie makes me actually care about him. He gives the character a gravitas and a sense of tragedy. Like all the good MCU villains, you understand his motivations, even if they’re still awful. (And stupid. The post-credits sequence does a nice job of reminding everyone that just blipping out half the population will cause way more problems than it will solve, and you’ll wind up with a lot more than half the population dead thanks to vehicle operators and other folks in charge of various bits of machinery suddenly not doing their jobs anymore. How many wrecked planes, trains, spaceships, etc. are there after the snap?)
It’s funny, you look at the structure of this film, and Thanos is, truly, the protagonist. It’s his quest that we’re seeing here, and the Avengers and the Guardians and the Wakandans are the obstacles in his way.
And in the end, he wins.
I haven’t covered everything that’s wonderful about this movie (developing the Vision-Maximoff relationship, e.g.) or everything that doesn’t quite work about this movie (why can’t Strange just teleport Thanos into the sun, e.g.), but it would be impossible, as this movie has so much going on, and most of it was wonderful to watch.
This is great cinema, a real thrill-ride with high stakes, great character development, and superb performances. Seriously, there’s not a bad acting job anywhere in this movie. I do want to single out Carrie Coon and Tom Vaughn-Lawlor. Most of Thanos’s minions are CGI nobodies, but Coon and especially Vaughn-Lawlor imbue Midnight and Maw with personality and verve, making the conflicts with them far more engaging.
And in the end, Thanos wins. That was ballsy, and sets things nicely up for the next movie, which we’ll cover week when we do Avengers: Endgame.
Keith R.A. DeCandido is doing a crowdfund for a couple new short stories in his original fantasy universes: “The Gorvangin Rampages: A Dragon Precinct Story” and “Ragnarok and a Hard Place: A Tale of Cassie Zukav, Weirdness Magnet.” Check it out!
You had me at “Yibambe!” :)
The arm-cutting off question bugged me while I watched the movie and continues to bug me, especially since we had seen Strange CUT OFF SOMEONE’S ARM with a portal EARLIER IN THE MOVIE.
Your reference to the collateral damage from the elimination of half the population is something I thought about, too, as it brought to my mind the early issues of Y: The Last Man. That was a more specific half, of course, but the chaos would be similar. Another reason why I think Stark’s demands not to undue the whole thing in Endgame were HORRIFIC. But I await your analysis on that next week!
Rich: actually, it was Wong who cut off the arm in question with the portal, not Strange.
—-Keith R.A. DeCandid
I feel like the arm question is answered by a comic-book style logic of bodily integrity. Something like people can’t accidentally lose limbs (which should happen more given the amount of super strong people) and you can’t solve certain kinds of problems with amputation.
One think I found particularly interesting is that no one bothers to debate Thanos. There’s the obvious moral objections to his scheme but no one stops to point out that Thanos is ridiculously wrong in his imagined effects.
My blog review:
https://christopherlbennett.wordpress.com/2018/06/11/thoughts-on-avengers-infinity-war-full-spoilers/
Excerpts:
And Keith and I recognized the same thing: that Thanos is actually the protagonist of this movie. Heck, he’s the only one who really has room for a real character arc.
@5 doesn’t gamora tell thanos off at some point? i feel like she does, or at least points out to how ridiculous he is overall and is just a monster that loves nothing. seriously gamora deserved better
What’s funny is that halving the Earth’s population would barely slow it down. It was half only 50ish years ago. Thanos didn’t think that one through. He should have halved AND decreased fertility rates to a very low percentage.
I’m kind of surprised this doesn’t even touch on the whole controversy with the Gamora/Thanos relationship and what it means for Thanos to ‘love’ her and ‘sacrifice’ her. Not that I feel like opening that can of worms either but I do think it’s at least a realistic portrayal of a toxic relationship (even if some people apparently sympathize too much with Thanos).
One of my other favorite parts of this movie plays into this, which is Captain America’s assertion that ‘we don’t trade lives’. Thanos is clearly willing to do so – but as CLB mentions, there are at least two plots (maybe three if you count Doctor Strange and his assertion that he will let Parker/Stark die, although I don’t think he’s being unreasonable there) involving people being asked to/having to kill somebody ‘for the greater good’ and in the end, even if they manage to do it, aren’t really rewarded for it (it either doesn’t take, or it’s reversed).
I do think sometimes we’re a tiny bit hard on Quill. I do agree he’s emotionally stunted and basically an example of the ‘way to break it, hero’ trope, but at the same time, it makes sense that he’s emotionally stunted, AND he’s obviously experiencing real grief at that moment so I feel like at times the criticism of his character in that moment becomes overly personal.
The idea that this is really Thanos’ movie is even reinforced in the credits, where instead of being unnecessarily told, “The Avengers Will Return,” as in other Avengers movies, we instead get an ominous line that reads “Thanos will return.”
I’ve never been satisfied with the trope of good guys not being willing to sacrifice someone they love for the greater good. I mean I get it. But in the moment the characters don’t know that some kind of plot twist or deus ex machina will change things. All they know is that either A) they sacrifice an individual to save everyone else or B) everyone (including the person they love) will die anyway.
From the description about the fight in Scotland: “two more of Thanos’s minions, Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive, along with various “space dogs,” attacking them, going after the mind stone. ” I don’t remember anyone but PM and CG attacking there. Am I missing something?
I take some umbrage with the line “With that one exchange, Shuri proves that she’s literally smarter than Stark and Banner put together…” While I don’t have a problem with Shuri being smarter than either, or even both together, and I’m not even necessarily disputing that it is true, I feel like this is not really an example of that. I’m sure we’ve all been in a situation where either we push through with a solution, doing the best we can and someone else comes in and sees a novel way to approach it (or been that person who sees the novel way). But, being able to see things from a fresh perspective – or being stuck in a box without knowing it – doesn’t prove ultimate intelligence in either direction. In terms Keith would relate to, as an editor, pointing out errors and where things don’t work and offering suggestions to smooth things out doesn’t make you a better author than the one who wrote the book/article, it just means you did what you were supposed to do and saw flaws, brought a fresh perspective, and offered improvements. Basically, for me Banner’s “We didn’t think of that” rang very true and her response did come off as dismissive. Like a smug teenager who loves sticking it to authority, I guess, which is appropriate and true to her character from Black Panther. So, TLDR, I like the scene, the exchange, but I don’t think it proves who is smarter as this is a different situation than that.
As for the movie as a whole, I loved it! It is a triumph of a film and I love what they did with it. The gave most characters a meaningful moment/plot point and honed the focus to a few chosen for continued growth. And I agree with the sentiment that Thanos is the protagonist of the film. I agree with @7 that Gamora does the rebuttal of Thanos while Steve offers the one-liner thematic dispute. It is one thing to offer yourself when options are exhausted, it is another to sacrifice others. Organized Chaos on youtube has a good breakdown of the theme/message of Infinity War in one of his videos. I think the comparison between it and JL? Maybe it and BvS?
One of the things I really love in this movie is the colors for the third act. All three plot lines have very strongly defined colors so you can tell at a glance which plot line you are in just by glancing at the screen, The Forge is Blue/Gray, Titan is Red/Orange, and Wakanda is Green.
It’s a minor thing but it shows the level of thought they put into it to make a very complex movie watchable.
RE: cutting off Thanos’ arm/hand, This isn’t in the film, but my no-prize explanation is that the Space Stone overrides the effects of the “sling-ring” *. Hence, Thanos, either in whole or in part, cannot be ‘ported against his will.
Alternatively, can the portal be conjured over a body part/person? I’m going on memory here, but it seems to me that people have to actually go through the portal.
@12
Once a certain level of intellect is attained, how can anyone say that one individual is smarter than another? Was Newton smarter than James Clerk Maxwell? How about Einstein vs Archimedes?
@8
In terms of the long-term effects of halving populations, I would assume that whether the demographic transition has occurred would be the critical factor.
* Hideous name. Should be Ring of Raggador, dammit!
I thought I was the only one who noticed the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak! I haven’t seen mention of it anywhere else. Frankly, I jumped up and down in my seat when I recognized them, just because it was such an obscure piece of Dr Strange lore that they just casually threw in.
@5 Anyone who tried to debate with Thanos would have died that much sooner. He was in no way interested in discussing anything. It is possible that someone or several someones had tried talking about this with him earlier. By the time of Infinity War, though, he’s already charging in with hus hordes of minions.
@krad: Speaking of Thor, the moment where he, Rocket, and Groot show up in Wakanda may be the single greatest punch-the-air moment in MCU history.
Well, you say “may”, and it’s in the running. (At least at that point in the chronology. I think Endgame has something to say about that, but I digress.)
For me, Rogers in the train station is the more powerful moment, but it’s not really a “punch-the-air” moment in quite the same way. It’s more of a Riders of Rohan bit, because, at least for me, the emotion it generates is not elation.
Also, I’m a bit surprised that the line “Yes… that’s what… killing you means” does not appear at any point in this article.
@9/Lisamarie: I think that, as crazy and indefensible as Thanos’s plan was, he’d sincerely convinced himself that he was a benevolent guy doing something that was painfully necessary for the greater good of the universe. So in a way, his willingness to sacrifice the daughter he loved to save the universe was basically the same as Star-Lord’s and Wanda’s reluctant willingness to kill their loved ones to save the universe. They just had different ideas (in Thanos’s case, a deeply warped idea) of what saving the universe meant.
Although there is a key difference, which is that Quill and Wanda were acting in accordance with their lovers’ wishes, while Thanos was acting against Gamora’s wishes in service to his own plan. So that’s the toxic aspect you’re talking about.
I remember my rabid excitement for the release of this movie and thinking that the only way they could pull of having so many characters in one movie would be to make the movie about Thanos running around and collecting the stones from the various character groups. How surprised and pleased I was when that turned out to be exactly what happened. And it was done so well.
Love the series, Krad. Looking forward to next week.
I just remember the shock of the ending, and hearing my poor granddaughter start ugly-crying as all the heroes disappeared into dust.
@20 Yes, right after watching this, I texted my sister to tell her not to take her kids to see it until after Endgame came out. I didn’t want my nephew and niece in mourning for the whole year
@20, 21
I have never been to see a movie this big that was so silent through the entirety of the end credits. Exiting the Imax theater was such a slow somber process that I heard a man behind me say it was like lining up to view a body at a funeral.
@20, 21, 22
When the screen went to black after showing Thanos smiling as he watched the “Sun rise over a grateful universe.” someone in my theater on opening night shouted “What the f*ck?”
@krad Go ahead and add me to the list of people who doesn’t really like one line of dialogue (about a very specific robotics/biology hybrid android that had already been half-finished by someone other than Stark/Banner) being the determining factor of overall intellect. Can’t Banner be better at bio, Stark be better at tech, and Shuri be better at a combination of the two?
@17 I agree with everything you said. The way that Eitri line is delivered is sublime and wonderful.
Aaaw, I have a particular fondness for Jim Starlin’s 70s Adam Warlock Saga, which climaxed with the fight against Thanos, but that’s as much just Starlin transplanting Moorcock’s Elric of Melnibone into 70s Cosmic Marvel.
I find amusing that for all their work redeeming “a second-rate Darkseid,” the movie (and recent comics) gives Thanos a bunch of second-rate knockoffs of the significant figures of Apokolips. (Ebony Maw is DeSaad, Corvus Glaive is Steppenwolf, Proxima Midnight is Lashina, Cull Obsidian is Kalibak).
I still love the movie for recreating the full-on Sturm und Drang that made these event comics so promising when I used to read them, and unlike most of those, this is far better.
Thor’s breakdown with Rocket Racoon is one of the best scenes in the entire MCU, though I wish the artificial eye had more significance (I was initially thinking before Endgame is was going to contain a version of the Soul Stone that would activate at the climax, much like the one belonging to Adam Warlock in the original Avengers annual)
Overall I like this slightly more than its follow-up, but it still astonishes this they made this or that it would be so terrific.
So…. I have to defend Quill here. This is a guy who’s spent the last few years suffering one traumatic event after another, especially in Guardians chapter 2, and has now been thrown into an insane situation. This is an orphan who watched his mother die, then got kidnapped by aliens, then learned his father is a genocidal god who killed his mother, killed his own father, then watched his father figure sacrifice himself for him. He comes to a point where he is willing to kill the love of his life and even PULLS THE TRIGGER. But it doesn’t happen. Then he only learns later that the man in front of him murdered the love of his life.
By the time he’s facing Thanos on Titan, he’s already an emotional, traumatized wreck. Then he gets the gut punch of learning Thanos killed Gamora. Frankly, I found the fact that he broke down and spoiled the plan to be utterly believable. Had he remained calm and cool and done his part…. well… THAT would have been unbelievable!
Alex K: Oh, it was 100% in character and made perfect sense. I stand by the emotionally stunted thundering dumbass line anyhow, but also acknowledge that his dumbassery is a feature, not a bug.
Keith Rose & KalvinKingsley: I didn’t mention that line of Eitri’s because it left me completely flat. :shrug:
Montagny: Oh, I admit it’s my own bias regarding Starlin’s work. It just doesn’t do it for me. :shrug again:
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
So, when did Thanos attack Nindvellir and make the Gauntlet? Because I’m pretty sure Heimdall, the guy who could see everything in the Nine Realms might have noticed such an event. I ask because Thanos had the Gauntlet in the Age of Ultron post-credits teaser, considerably before Heimdall’s death. And this raises the even bigger question of why Odin had a fake Gauntlet years, if not centuries before the Gauntlet was created.
Considering how many movies they had to develop this, I’m a bit surprised they screwed up something so central to the main storyline.
Almuric: if it was done after Loki-as-Odin relieved Heimdall of his post (which is possible), Heimdall might have been too busy hiding and stuff to notice or do anything about it.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Still no love for Florence Kasumba who made her third appearance as Ayo? (She was also in Wonder Woman, which should make this her fourth appearance in the rewatch) :(
@26/krad: Fair enough. It makes me laugh, but humour is subjective. I just had the (incorrect) impression it might have worked for you.
To me it fits a similar pattern as the Banner and Stark quotes you used for the internal breaks, in that the joke breaks tension, without diminishing the stakes or turning to slapstick. I like the way the film uses humour, sparingly but effectively, to punctuate and add dynamic range to the overall mood.
KRAD, great essay in all respects! BTW Why didn’t Thanos just double or triple the number of habitable planets in the universe?
As an Edinburgh citizen, I can confirm that deep fried kebabs are a terrible idea.
My other favourite moment, when Thanos slams the Hulk into the floor the score goes “Dun-dun-duuuuun!“
One of the things that really excited me during the lead-up to the film’s release was the confirmation that Jonathan Hickman’s Avengers run was one of the story foundations.
I’d finally gotten around to reading Hickman’s Avengers (along with his Fantastic Four) back in the Summer of 2016 and it had blown my mind. I especially remember reading the Infinity event, loving the Black Order, and desperately hoping they’d make their way into the Cinematic Universe either in Guardians Vol. 2 or Infinity War.
Needless to say, I was giddy after the 2017 D23 Expo confirmed the Black Order were the film’s secondary antagonists. Given the limits of the film, I knew they wouldn’t get much development or screen-time, but it was still cool to see them rendered for live-action.
@31. Well, that’s the big problem with changing Thanos from a romantic who literally courts Death to a rationalist who’s concerned about overpopulation. The latter was his reason for destroying half the universe in the comics, but for some reason the MCU is still very hesitant to really embrace the big cosmic stuff, even after 20 movies.
@34/Almuric: I’d call MCU Thanos more a fanatic than a rationalist. A fanatic’s motivation can be very rational on its own terms, but based on a set of assumptions that the fanatic is utterly unwilling and unable to question or doubt. Thanos only reasoned as far as “If I get rid of half the people, there will be more stuff to go around” and then stopped there, rather than examining the flaws in the premise.
Hi there. Casual fan here. I haven’t seen this movie yet. But couldn’t the big purple dude just use the magic glove to create more resources and places to live for everyone? What am I missing here?
Regarding alleviating overcrowding and stretched resources, not sure even Thanos would be this reprehensible or despicable:
Larry Niven’s world
@Del: the big purple dude should’ve used the mind stone to make himself smarter.
@5: I’ve seen some people say that the fact that there’s a relative lack of characters specifically condemning Thanos’ plan as evidence that the film and/or its makers don’t think it’s all that reprehensible.
And I think that it is the precise opposite: The movie doesn’t need to waste time explaining to us why Thanos’ plan is god-awful because it’s *obvious* his plan is god-awful and they had enough respect for their audience to use those minutes to better purpose.
@39, Right and the insanity of the plan makes complete sense after the backstory monologue before the battle on Titan. He was nuts even before the cataclysm on Titan and the loss of his entire species and homeworld made it worse.
The 50/50 plan isn’t so much about saving the universe from Titan’s fate as it is about proving to the dead of Titan that he was right all along, that his plan would have worked.
Or at least that was my takeaway the first time I saw Infinity War, anyway.
@36 Big purple dude could have done anything he wanted.
He wanted to kill 50% of the universe’s population.
#38
Haha, okay, I’ll go along with that. So it’s like a villain from an Ernest movie.
I found it suspicious that when Stark and Banner need a big monster to fight the other big monster, they start using the word “thing”. I’m having a thing, there’s no time for a thing, that’s the thing over there. I started hearing it with a capital T.
Someone has to make the comment: Alien 3 wasn´t that bad. ;-P
@44 Andre
Taken by itself, no, it isn’t bad at all. It’s just what happened to Hicks and Newt….
I did enjoy this one and it was a pretty remarkable achievement. One problem I had, though, was Thanos’ henchmen (Ebony Maw, et al.) were all kind of nameless and interchangeable in the film — did we even every learn their names other than by watching the credits?
@hoop: don’t think their names were ever established. Maybe Thanos says something along the lines of “Maw is dead” at one point.
One thing I wished they hadn’t messed up is the great Carrie Coon’s performance. She is so good that they should have used her actual expressions. Instead, they CGI’ed them, making her lips look contorted on a couple occasions. She should’ve been in practical make-up.
Yeah, I remember at one point looking her up on IMDB (I think after watching her in Fargo) and being shocked to see that she had been in an Avengers movie, and probably not even knowing who “Proxima Midnight” was until I found a picture or something.
While I don’t agree with the idea that Thanos is the protagonist of the film — at least not as that term is customarily defined — I’m always surprised that no one else but me seems to have interpreted the final shot of him as an intentional homage to our last look at Michael Corleone in Godfather II: a close-up of a tragically misguided being looking out on the world he has made by selling his soul.
As regards the efficacy of halving the world’s population, it isn’t volume that’s the issue but interconnectedness. In the past, the world could have and indeed did get along with half the people we have now. But wiping out 50% at random would almost certainly deliver a deathblow to life-sustaining services and operations upon which we all depend. The pilots alluded to in the final sequence are just the tip of the iceberg. Our personal safety is so contingent upon a vast global network of strangers that I can’t imagine us surviving the sudden and indiscriminate loss of half of them for more than a few weeks, tops. Wisely, this movie and Endgame largely shy away from addressing the true macro-level implications of such an event, instead focusing on smaller, more personal moments like the support-group scene in Endgame (one of my favorite scenes in all the MCU).
Oh, and as regards Quill: It’s sad and shocking to me how many people dismiss him as merely being a jackass because he had a response that prioritized the momentary needs of his own heart over what his brain told him was right. That’s called being a human being, and also the foundation of all worthwhile drama. Look down on it at your peril.
@49/Stephen: “While I don’t agree with the idea that Thanos is the protagonist of the film — at least not as that term is customarily defined…”
Well, it’s been argued that the term “protagonist” literally means the primary agent/catalyst of a story, the character whose pursuit of a goal drives the story’s events, while the antagonist is the character trying to prevent the protagonist from achieving that goal. Contrary to what we assume, it’s often the villain who’s the protagonist (pursuing the goal of world conquest or destruction or reviving the dead or whatever) and the hero who’s the antagonist (trying to stop the villain from conquering/destroying the world or whatever). By that definition, Thanos is emphatically the protagonist, because he drives the whole movie through his pursuit of his goal and the Avengers are just reacting to him, trying to stop him. It isn’t until Endgame that the Avengers become the protagonists, driving the story through their pursuit of the goal of undoing what Thanos did.
By the definitions in that article, Thanos is also the closest thing the film has to a main character — “the story’s principal point-of-view character… also the character whose arc tends to exhibit the greatest degree of change.” The viewpoint is scattered among so many different heroes that Thanos’ POV is the largest, most consistent presence, and he gets a complete character arc in the movie while the others’ arcs are more brief, fragmentary, and reactive.
What Thanos is not is the hero, the character we’re supposed to root for and identify with. We expect hero, main character, and protagonist to be one and the same, but often they aren’t. This is a case where they aren’t.
@50/CLB:
I’m certainly aware that a hero and a protagonist don’t have to be the same thing. But what arc does Thanos really have? What does he change his mind about? Anything? As I recall, even in flashback, he’s a guy who has come up with a terrible idea he thinks is not only terrific but necessary, and nothing deters him from making that idea a reality. As far as I can see, his mindset is the same through the entire film.
I can think of about, oh, a gajillion protagonists in fiction who don’t change their mind about a damn thing over their stories, so I’m not seeing where that is a requirement for a protagonist. As for Thanos’s arc, it’s finding and getting the infinity stones. He even has to sacrifice his surrogate daughter (the one he actually cares about, as opposed to Nebula) in order to get one.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
@51 – protagonists don’t need to have an arc. They can be perfectly flat and still drive the story. The only requirement for a character to be a protagonist is that they need to drive the story.
@53/daniel: I didn’t say protagonists needed an arc. The definitions I was quoting said that the main character is the one whose arc goes through the greatest amount of change. The protagonist is a separate concept — the character whose pursuit of a goal drives the events of the story. My whole point is that protagonist, main character, and hero can be separate things.
@35. Well, I say rationalist because Thanos tries to justify his actions by an appeal to reason, albeit flawed reasoning. It would seem by the “court Death” reference in the Avengers post-credit scene that the idea of Thanos being motivated in the same way as his comic counterpart was originally on the table. I wonder if they deliberately changed their minds or just forgot it?
@55/Almuric: I think Joss Whedon just wanted to make a clever wordplay with the “courting Death” thing. (And succeeded, IMHO.)
And Keith and I recognized the same thing: that Thanos is actually the protagonist of this movie. Heck, he’s the only one who really has room for a real character arc.
@6/Christopher: That Thanos was the de-facto protagonist was something I knew before I even watched the film. Writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely confirmed it in an interview I happened to read before seeing the actual film.
https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/features/931645-why-thanos-is-the-main-character-of-avengers-infinity-war
CLB/ There can be no question that Thanos is the protagonist of AIW. He is the leading character of the film and everything in the film revolves around him. Also, Thanos has hubris–excessive pride and self-confidence, which ultimately will lead to his downfall like Achilles of Greek mythology.
Thanos IS a second-rate Darkseid. That does not mean that he can’t also be an interesting second-rate Darkseid. But the roots of the character lie with The King.
And when New Gods finally arrives, some audience members will say Darkseid is a Thanos knock-off. It’s the circle of… something.
Regardless of who came first, I’ve always enjoyed Thanos stories more than Darkseid.
@56, CLB, Whedon addressed what his original plans, or lack thereof, for Thanos were right after Infinity War came out:
““Honestly, I kind of hung [Thanos] out to dry. I love Thanos. I love his apocalyptic vision, his love affair with death. I love his power. But, I don’t really understand it. He’s had a lot of power, and he was cool in the comics. And I’m like, Thanos is the ultimate Marvel villain! And then I was like, I don’t actually know what I would do with Thanos. So, I liked what [the Russo brothers] did so much, and I thought Josh Brolin killed it. And they did an amazing job of keeping that performance on-screen. But it wasn’t like I was like, here’s a set of directions. I was like, I’m gonna get through Ultron, nap for four years, and then I’ll come to the premiere. Which I did! It was like, this is so cool!””
Personally, I’m in agreement with both Whedon and KRAD. The Thanos of the Comics isn’t…he’s never really been interesting to me either and it would’ve been very, very difficult to adapt the ‘Courtship of Death’ aspect.
I think the Russos made the right choice with their take. I like how they kept the basic idea of an obsession with death while going a different, more feasible, and in a lot of ways more interesting route.
(That said, with Endgame I did like how they seamlessly steered Thanos back to his ‘Kill Everybody’ roots without undoing the character development of Infinity War).
@62. Mr Magic: That’s an Endgame element that doesn’t get stressed much. The 2014 Thanos has a “Eureka!” moment when he realizes he succeeded in the future, but the Avengers are trying to undo it.
Conclusion: it’s not enough to wipe out half of all life if you let the sentient creatures remember it, because, you know, some of them will resent what you did. Solution? Wipe out everything and start from scratch, forgetting about a mind stone that would likely let him wipe memories.
The universe next time would presumably include parameters were the Avengers, or anyone like them, would never arise. This puts the lie to any possible argument that Thanos is right to determine the universe in any of the ways he’s thought of. He’s simply a fascistic megalomaniac who has other solutions literally at his fingertips, but chooses not to do so.
@61: for me the only good moment of Darkseid was the animated Superman and the World of Cardboard speach:
“That man won’t quit as long as he can still draw a breath. None of my teammates will. Me? I’ve got a different problem. I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die. But you can take it, can’t you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am.”
— Superman, Justice League Unlimited, right before one hell of an asskicking handed to Darkseid, written by Dwayne McDuffie
wlewisiii: That was one of the three or four greatest Superman moments ever. Goddamn, I miss Dwayne…..
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
Put me down as another person that disgrees with
With that one exchange, Shuri proves that she’s literally smarter than Stark and Banner put together
Having more knowledge or more insight in one thing doesn’t make you smarter in all things. They just have different areas of expertise and are all experts in their own fields. Its like saying a rocket scientist is smarter than a neurosurgeon cos they can get us to the moon.
@66/Saywot: “They just have different areas of expertise and are all experts in their own fields.”
Uhh, no; Shuri’s areas of expertise demonstrated in Black Panther are pretty much the same as Tony Stark’s — engineering, high-tech armor suits and weapons, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, remote interfaces, etc. And here she had an insight into the Vision’s neural net that surpassed that of its own inventors Stark and Banner. So clearly we are not talking about “different areas of expertise” here.
Also, I think the fact that Shuri is a teenager who’s intellectually owning these guys in their late 40s counts for something.
@64: Here’s a Youtube link of that moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQabrSpKcJw
It’s one of my favorite Superman moments as well (right up there with Superman confronting the wizard about his treatment of Billy Batson).
I mean, if you were going to argue that MCU films aren’t cinema, this is like Exhibit A. I maintain that this is the worst of the MCU movies, largely because it is barely a movie at all. It has no clear through-line of beginning, middle, and end. It’s basically just a collection of scenes where a bunch of cool people we know from other movies get to hang out with people they don’t usually hang out with, but those scenes usually don’t go anywhere interesting, and then everything blows up THE END
And it’s maddening because for one thing Endgame succeeds in actually telling a coherent story with a lot of the same elements, and for another you could TOTALLY do an MCU movie that is a collection of vignettes and short sequences where characters from different series overlap, and make it interesting. There are lots of great movies that are basically collections of interwoven short stories, like Pulp Fiction.
I’ve rewatched the movie a few times to see if am judging it harshly, but I always come away with the same impression: individual scenes are entertaining to watch because the people involved are very good at what they do, but it doesn’t add up to much. The biggest problem is Thanos himself, whose plan is the stupidest of any Marvel villains; it’s basically like he failed his college Intro to Environmental Science and then decided he knew enough to fix the universe. He is played by Josh Brolin so of course he’s compelling to watch, but that really just raises more questions: if Thanos is stupid enough to believe in his own plan, how could he be competent enough to pose a threat or accomplish what he has?
No real though seems to have been put into how Thanos works at all. Based on how the ‘Children of Thanos’ behave, he seems to be a cult leader with a messianic vision–but that doesn’t really track with how he has been presented in previous movies, and it doesn’t seem consistent with how he actually behaves. He doesn’t act like a cult leader with his followers, and anyway how do Gamora and Nebula fit into the whole ‘Children of Thanos’ deal? They don’t act like cult followers like the others, and Thanos doesn’t treat the new quartet the way he treated Nebula and Gamora. It feels like they pulled a bunch of disparate threads and tied them together without thinking that much about how this worked because, let’s be honest, that’s what they did.
So if Thanos is the ‘protagonist’ of this film, that’s really a big problem for me. Thanos is not very interesting, and we never get a clear enough picture into his internal life for any of the various bits to make sense. He’s not a character–he’s a thing that happens to other people. Which leads to the second problem: what any of this means for the rest of the MCU.
I didn’t really feel anything when I finished watching Infinity War in the theater, because I didn’t believe that any of the people disappearing were gone. ‘The Snap’ isn’t real enough to mean anything. But still, a number of characters stories come to a very final end here. Thor lost what remained of his supporting cast–whatever development Loki had, that Loki is dead, and so are the rest of the Asgardians we knew. More importantly, Gamora is dead. Of the Guardians, she is the character who mostly badly needed some further fleshing out, and instead her story ends with a shameful murder and the unsettling display of her corpse. It’s really weird that right now we know more about who Nebula is than about who Gamora was.
@67 and @68, In Tony and Banner’s defense, they did have an in-story justification for the mistakes they made with Vision’s construction.
They were up against the clock during Age of Ultron and were rushing to complete Vision in time before Ultron could execute his endgame. They were also exhausted and run ragged from the South Africa mission and the previous attack on Avengers Tower. (and that’s without taking into account Steve, Clint, Pietro, and Wanda’s disruptions during the final startup sequence).
So it’s no wonder they made mistakes and that Vision wasn’t as efficiently constructed as he could’ve been. Amusingly, Banner would’ve been too humble to fall back on that defense, but had Tony been there, you know he’d have acknowledged it (albeit snarkily).
@71/Mr. Magic: Why do Tony and Bruce need a “defense?” They’re geniuses. Nobody’s disputing that. Shuri just happens to be a bigger genius — why is that so hard for some people to swallow? Or do I need to ask?
Shuri’s line is cool, and watching Banner sit there and reassess her is great because it’s clear he hadn’t thought of her as being a peer, but turning it into some silly vs-debate pissing contest of genius levels is absurd.
As a woman in STEM, please do not try to play the sexism card and turn this into some kind of empowerment thing. It needs to be asked because if you’re going to make a claim like that, it needs to be justifable and quantifiable and have a reasonable sample size. I get that it’s an emotionally satisfying thing to be all ‘woo, look at the young girl show up these two old men!’ but it’s just not how intelligence or genius is accurately measured. I work with plenty of very smart people (none of them on any of these levels, obviously) and at various times all of us have had ‘duh’ moments that benefitted from a fresh set of eyes (even when it’s an area of our own expertise). It has nothing to do with who is smarter, nor do any of us keep score.
They’re all geniuses and at that point I’m not even sure you can meaningfully quantify the difference to any statistically significant degree. The awesome thing about the scene, in my view, is that they 100% take her at her word instead of getting defensive or dismissive, and value her contributions.
To me, a film truly works when you’re so invested in the characters that you’re literally rooting for them and against them at the most pivotal moments. When Peter learns of Gamora’s passing, I was literally chipping my fingernails because I knew he was going to lose it and pound on Thanos, throwing their entire plan into disarray.
When you know the characters so well that you can anticipate their actions for better and worse, that’s a sign the screenplay is doing right by the audience, leading us into each emotional beat. Peter’s actions make complete sense given the character’s prior history. You know it’s going to mess everything up, but you can’t take your eyes off the screen for a second.
That’s one of the biggest strenghts in this film. Infinity War is not only the culmination and integration of every MCU storyline to date, but also the biggest most satisfying effort coming from the Russos, Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely. The latter two have rightuflly earned their place as top tier storytellers in the MCU since that first Cap film. This is big stakes storytelling at its most confident. Only a Star Wars film can match this level of audience participation. This is what Feige and the Russos have managed to achieve (even surpassing Whedon).
On another front, I have to give ample kudos to Alan Silvestri. The MCU always had a bit of a music problem, owing to the fact that none of the films have themes that register or ever become memorable. They’re merely serviceable. Silvestri’s original Avengers theme was the first to break the mold back in 2012. His Infinity War and Endgame scores are the pinnacle of a truly great musical career (and this is coming from the guy who did Back to the Future, way back then). The scene where Thor nearly kills himself trying to build Stormbreaker (with Groot coming to the rescue) has a truly heart-wrenching musical motif behind it. It feels grand and impacting in a way few films these days manage.
For a moment, I was convinced this was going to be it for Tony Stark. I didn’t know the extent of Downey Jr.’s contract back then, and Thanos impaling him like that seemed pretty definitive at the time.
Thanos is definitely the protagonist, front and center. After building him in the background for this long, we needed to spend some extra time with him, and truly understand what’s at stake. This was the right call.
As for everything else, it’s a credit to these filmmakers to be able to juggle so many different characters and tones so effortlessly. Civil War was an essential trial run for Markus, McFeely and the Russos in setting up this hulking mammoth installment of an Avengers.
If there’s a character that truly grew on me thanks to this film, it was Doctor Strange in a way his own origin film didn’t quite manage. Here we got the actual confidence, intelligence, long-term planning, arrogance and humor all in one. A perfect fit for Cumberbatch, who got to do some truly great work with Downey Jr. and Holland. And it made me realize just how important Strange’s powers are to the overall crisis.
The other major selling point was Nebula. Already the more interesting character in Guardians 2, here she starts on a path of growth and redemption, becoming even more three-dimensional and nuanced.
And then there’s the ending. Grim, but not necessarily permanent. It had its impact, but I figured it had to be reversed down the line. The question was whether they were going to employ the reset button or do it differently. I was glad with the path chosen at the end by Markus and McFeely.
@75– I disagree that Silvestri’s Avengers theme was the first to break the mold. His theme to Captain America was equally memorable. I find myself humming it all the time.
@70– “We’re just two guys from Cleveland, Ohio, and cinema is a New York word. In Cleveland, we call them movies.” — Joe Russo
Bravo!
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/11/russo-brothers-scorsese-marvel?mbid=social_facebook&utm_brand=vf&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR0QUguj6rGNXBJv57Llri8pW2_y3XaV0IX7lH5WttYOI71bziTpESbOixk
this is a good movie- but it’s flawed.
one of the biggest problems is how they ignore everything that’s happened to the odinson in his own movies and his own growth arc.
after ragnarok, he is able to flatten the hulk and go toe-to-toe with hela.
in the beginning of infinity war, he’s defeated off screen.
he spends the movie trying to make a new hammer.
in his last movie, he realizes he’s NOT the ‘god of hammers’.
not saying he should be able to walk all over thanos, but still!
and with the new hammer, he has the power of the bifrost. could just, you know, warp thanos’ head off of his shoulders.
that final fight was ABSURD. he could have just put mjolnir on thanos’ FOOT.
(also, where did the army of asgard come from? hela KILLED them all. totally, the guys who made this movie didn’t watch ANY of the thor films.)
this film (and the next) are ridiculous devolutions of the odinson.
and that sucks.
#24- montagny
TOTALLY right (imo) about warlock and elric.
(also, i thought starlin’s warlock was one of the more accurate depictions of MI in comics)
but yea, i LOVE that arc.
@77
I mean, if superhero movies are just amusement park rides and aren’t interested in telling interesting stories, fine–that’s conceding the point though, isn’t it?
I’m critical of movies because I like them and I want to demand more from them.
I loved this movie; I have a soft-spot for stories where the heroes lose, or at best achieve a Pyrrhic victory. This is what made Rogue One such an awesome movie for me. Closing with Rogers “oh no” (or was it “oh god”) was brilliant. So many great character moments. I thought Bucky got sort of short-changed, and the new arm was a bit of a failed Chekhov’s Gun (they made a deal of giving it to him, but it didn’t do anything); him picking up Rocket to use him as a gun was really good, though. Holland was just so brilliant every moment he was on the screen (“Magic! Magic again! Magic, with a kick!”). I would love to have seen Dinklage’s face when he found out he would be the biggest character in the movie. I echo the sentiments that Quill is a big giant man-baby, and losing it during the fight was perfectly in keeping with his character.
Sure, the story was inevitable (heh, like Thanos himself), since it’s the first of 2 movies dealing with the Infinity Stones. I knew going into it that the ending would be Thanos winning. It’s the journey that counts, so just how he wins is the important thing.
I have a friend that absolutely hated this movie; one point where he got hung up was on how Thanos could love Gamorra enough to be a sacrifice. I tried explaining that you can’t quantify love that way. When you look at abusers, a common thread is they do it out of love, for their own good, etc. In Thanos’ mind, he truly does love Gamorra, and this sacrifice cut him deeply. We find it warped and twisted, but that’s not important to the Soul Stone. It just has to be a sacrifice of someone you love.
The audience I was with also went nuts when Thor showed up (myself included), a reaction only to be surpassed for 1 moment in Endgame.
Couple of things:
There’s a reason why Thanos is called the “Mad” Titan.
Shuri and Tony are both much smarter than Bruce. Bruce has a field of science that he is an expert in. Shuri and Tony are adept at just about everything. Arguing over who is smarter is pointless. The line in question doesn’t definitively mean anything because it’s Banner’s response, not Tony’s.
@82/John: Again, though, Shuri has matched or exceeded Tony Stark while being not much more than a third of his age. And if she’s already become Wakanda’s chief scientist as a teenager, how young must she have been when she started inventing? The Marvel Universe is full of geniuses, but no human in the MCU has achieved so much at such an early age.
Morgan Stark is a tinkerer like her dad. Would be interesting for her to meet Shuri down the road as a mentor. Imagine what two such prodigies could build. They could even create something new for the MCU, not just adapted from the comics.
@83/Christopher– for comparison purposes, Tony Stark built his first circuit board at 4 and his first engine at 6.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4wOlvx8igzk
@81, Yeah, I think anyone familiar with the comics knew the Snap was coming either in this film or in Endgame.
You don’t adapt the Thanos story for the big screen and not do its more horrific, iconic moment. The downside was it took some of the shock out of the moment for me (though I was obviously still stunned Feige and the Russos actually had the guts to do it regardless).
Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely have also said the Snap was actually intended to be the opening of Endgame until they realized it worked better as Infinity War‘s ending. That cliffhanger is also why I kept joking afterward that Endgame didn’t need a marketing campaign. With an ending like that, who wasn’t going to come back to theaters a year later?
@85/Steven: Lots of kids build circuit boards and engines. They sell educational kits for that sort of thing — I had one myself. So that’s kind of ambiguous — did the narration mean he designed new ones? It’s too vaguely worded a statement to say for sure what it means.
And yeah, he graduated MIT at 17, but he wasn’t running an entire nation’s chief science bureau at that age, and it was decades more before he started inventing the kind of armors that Shuri whips up for her big brother.
@75, yeah, Alan Silvestri’s return to the Cinematic Universe was another thing that had me really excited for Infinity War.
I was disappointed he didn’t return for scoring duties on Age of Ultron (and it’s still unclear if was because of a scheduling conflict, creative differences, or something else). Brian Tyler and Danny Elfman are both great composers in their own right, but their joint score had big shoes to fill and it just didn’t measure up.
So I remember chuckling in the theater last year when the Avengers fanfare blasted in the main title. With the force and tempo, it was a if Silvestri was musically asking, “You miss me?”
And the Infinity War and Endgame scores are both great. Silvestri really brought his, heh, A-game. The one real thing that disappointed me about Infinity War‘s score last year was, aside from the Avengers and Wakanda leitmotifs, none of the other MCU themes were reused. Silvestri explained why that happened and I get his reasoning, but it was still a disappointment.
@75, actually, you also reminded me…
I remember hoping during the franchise’s early years that the MCU’s music would take its cues from what Shirley Walker and her collaborators had done with Batman: The Animated Series and its spinoffs.
Walker set the musical foundation of the DC Animated Universe and having the same core team of composers working for that franchise’s entire production run really paid off. The rich musical scores became part of the Bruce Timm shows’ branding, it stayed consistent, and the recurring character leitmotifs helped musically sell the idea of the shared setting.
But that didn’t really happen during Phase One. In Feige’s defense, I know he and his team were going through the growing pains and stress of building a shared cinematic universe and figuring out how to make it all work. But not nailing down the musical foundation was a critical misstep and it’s hurt the MCU for years. I’d argue it didn’t finally achieve course correction and stabilize until Phase Three.
@88– Silvestri’s Captain America theme was used in Endgame when Tony Stark gave Cap his shield back. He utilized Captain Marvel’s theme when she made her big appearance in the final battle as Thanos’s ship crashed into the water. The Captain Marvel composer was even listed in the credits.
@90, Christophe Beck’s Ant-Man leitmotif also cameos when Scott gets ejected from the Quantum Van Tunnel.
Btu that’s what I was trying to get at with the Cinematic Universe finally achieving stable musical consistency by the time we got to late Phase Two / early Phase Three and carrying over established leitmotifs.
It drove me nuts back in the day how Thor, Tony, and Steve each cycled through different main themes because of the composer turnover rate (granted, Henry Jackman briefly reused Silvestri’s theme before debuting his own).
There should’ve been more focus on keeping established leitmotifs for characters in the early years or nailing down a core team of composers and it still bugs me that it took so long.
@91/Mr. Magic: That was also a recurring problem within the Fox-based X-Men films. The first three films had three very different composers. Only John Ottman’s score stood out as a defining main theme for the X-franchise. So it’s not surprising he was the only one called back to do the McAvoy X-Men films. Of course, that was the beneficial result of being Bryan Singer’s closest collaborator. And it was definitely a different kind of movie franchise than the MCU, with the films being more individually driven. But the lack of a clear musical identity is noticeable, aside from Ottman’s work.
@92/Eduardo: Actually I find that Michael Kamen’s theme for X-Men and Ottman’s for X-2 both sound like riffs on Ron Wasserman’s theme to the ’90s X-Men animated series, which is cool.
I actually liked Kamen’s score the best. It had a rich, lyrical quality that wasn’t typical of a superhero/action movie.
Shuri had access to more advanced technology and a super maguffin metal from birth. We don’t know if her status as a royal family member contributed to her being head scientist or not. One line of dialogue between Shuri and Banner doesn’t definitively prove anything. They both have pretty significant achievements. This argument about which is smarter is up there with who would win in a fight between two characters. Pointless.
@92, Oh yeah, that’s right. I’d completely forgotten about the X-Men films’ musical headaches.
That drove me crazy about the original Trilogy too, though I’m complete agreement Ottman’s was the best of the original three scores. I love his Main Theme and I’ve had his X-Men scores playing whenever I’ve been reading Jonathan Hickman’s X-Men.
Ha, as soon as I started scrolling through the comments and saw ‘X-Men’ and ‘music’, the X-Men cartoon theme came into my head :) I actually felt the same way about the earlier themes.
I forget, did Spider-Man get a theme in the MCU? I know there’s the Elfman theme from the originals which is the one I’d be most likely to call his theme if hard pressed (although I couldn’t hum it to you. I love most of Elfman’s work though, but that one doesn’t stand out as much). I think the most consistent Spider-Man theme I can think of is that old 60s show theme that’s been jokingly incorporated into the movies :)
Although I do kind of love how in the DCU they basically said ‘screw it’ and used the Williams Superman theme in various moments because just…what else are you going to use? :) In all seriousness, I definitely support them coming up with a new theme and getting a new artistic vision, but I suppose the fact that the Williams theme is still what resonates shows they haven’t quite managed to get something that clicks yet. But I will admit that that – and this is just a preference – I’ve never been that into Hans Zimmer. I like his stuff well enough, it just never wowed me, and it’s kind of annoying how people on other forums I lurk on seem intent in creating a Williams/Zimmer rivalry and can’t mention one without bashing the other (I definitely see both sides doing this). In fact, I was blown away to hear that he did the Lion King score because…I love that score, lol.
@96, yes, Micahel Giacchino composed a leitmotif for Peter for the two MCU Spidey films.
I like it, but if I had to choose between it and Giacchino’s Doctor Strange theme, Strange wins hands down.
Apparently X-Men: The Animated Series‘s theme was influenced by or taken from a Hungarian show called Linda the Policewoman. The claim is that the show was very popular at the time and that two composers (Ron Wasserman and Shuki Levy) taking credit for the theme would have been exposed to it thru the Hungarian animators who worked on the show.
Linda sues the X-men
The video was removed, but here’s a version of the Linda theme:
Linda theme
The motif isn’t repeated throughout, but it’s very similar. Linda‘s was copyrighted in 1983.
@98/Sunspear: There’s a similarity, but no more so than plenty of other musical pastiches/homages I’ve heard — hardly enough to warrant a lawsuit.
Depends on where the lawsuit ends up. Some of these things get absurd, like the Rolling Stones suing the Verve for 4 notes in “Bittersweet Symphony.” I still can’t hear the supposed swipe, but the Stones got all royalties from the song after the suit. This one seems clearer. There was even some animation in the original credits, which perhaps lends some credence to the claim.
The fact that it took so long for a suit to be brought probably works against, as does the fact that the suit is brought by the estate agent, not the original composer.
This is twentieth entry in the great superhero movie rewatch to break 100 comments. You guys are awesome. Thank you.
—-Keith R.A. DeCandido
I think Captain Marvel still has the most, at least last time I checked! At the end it would be fun to see some stats. IIRC, Batman vs Superman was one of them, and maybe Dark Knight. I was just looking through the list a few days ago to see…
@97 – ah yes! As soon as i started listening to it, I recognized the Spider-Man theme. I like it (I like Giacchino in general) although it’s not as memorable of some of my favorite soundtracks. Agreed on Doctor Strange though! When we were watching the movie for the first time, I had commented that I really enjoyed the music and then I saw Giacchino had scored it.
The whole Shuri/Stark thing reminds me of why the creator of the second Mr. Terrific over at DC was so brilliant to make the character “the third smartest man on Earth”. Establish the character as intellectually outclassing basically the entire world while leaving the bunfights over who’s #1 and #2 entirely to others.